2019-2020 Faculty/Staff Directory
After graduating from college, I began working as a paraeducator in 2001 in Charlotte, Vermont. It was a great experience and led me to graduate school in 2003. That experience helped me realize I wanted to make teaching my life’s work. I received my teaching license from St. Michael’s College in Colchester, Vermont and began teaching at St. Francis Xavier School in 2004. I served as the principal at St Francis Xavier School from 2008-2016. I hold a Master’s degree in Educational Leadership from St. Michael’s College.
I am originally from Massachusetts and was brought up on Boston sports. We moved to Florida to be closer to family and were blessed to move to St. Petersburg in 2016. We welcomed our first child, Evelyn, on New Year's Eve 2014 and we are proud to announce she began the 2-year-old program at St Jude’s in January 2017.
In my free time, I enjoy spending time with friends and family and volunteering in my community. I have been very active with a local rescue squad over the past few years. I hold an EMT certification at the state and national level. I enjoy outdoor activities, martial arts (for the past 16 years) traveling to the beach and playing golf. My family and I love taking trips to Disney World, so living in Florida is great for us!
Mrs. Wilson was born and raised in Clearwater, and grew up in the Diocese of St. Petersburg. She attended St. Cecelia Interparochial School, Clearwater Central Catholic High School, and completed her undergrad and master's degrees at Saint Leo University. Mrs. Wilson holds a Bachelor's degree in Elementary Education and a Master's degree in Educational Leadership. Mrs. Wilson started teaching in the Diocese in 2002. She has 14 years of classroom teaching experience ranging in grade levels 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 6th grade. Most recently, Mrs. Wilson was the Assistant Principal at Guardian Angels Catholic School in Clearwater until becoming Assistant Principal at St. Jude. The mission of Catholic education is important to Mrs. Wilson and she enjoys sharing her faith with students and families. Mrs. Wilson has been a member of Light of Christ Catholic Church in Clearwater since she was born. In her spare time, Mrs. Wilson enjoys spending time with her family and friends, shopping, reading, and going to Disney!
Mrs. Vickers is the Cathedral of St Jude Guidance Counselor and Admissions Coordinator. She grew up in Pinellas County, attended Catholic Schools and is a graduate of Clearwater Central Catholic High School. She has a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Mental Health Counseling from the University of South Florida. Go BULLS! Mrs. Vickers holds Guidance Certification for the State of Florida for K-12th Grade. Mrs. Vickers is married and has 2 daughters and is also member of St. Catherine's of Siena parish. Mrs. Vickers enjoys being with her family, reading and watching movies.
Mrs. Debbie Gerdes joined the Cathedral School as an administrative assistant in the spring of 2012 after seven years as an office assistant at Tampa Palms Elementary and three years at Mitchell Elementary in Tampa. Mrs. Gerdes assists our principal Mr. Jesse Gaudette and the St. Jude administrative team. She is also very active in the Cathedral Parish, where she has been the coordinator for Confirmation, an Eucharistic Minister, a member of Christ Renews His Parish and the coordinator for the a variety of social events. Mrs. Gerdes attended St. Petersburg College and Bryan College in Dayton, Tenn. Her husband, John, is the director of athletics at Clearwater Central Catholic High School, and they have two sons, Kyle (25), a firefighter with St. Petersburg Fire & Rescue, and Cody (24), who resides in Atlanta with his wife, Tori, and their German Shepherd, George.
Mrs. Bertucci came to the Cathedral School of St. Jude in January 2016 bringing with her 17 years of experience in Catholic School Administration. Born in Pennsylvania and raised in Ohio, Mrs. Bertucci moved to Florida in 1979 where she met her husband, Cliff and they were married in July 1984. Mrs. Bertucci has three grown daughters, one grand-daughter, and is excited to have another grandchild in August 2017.
Mrs. Bertucci and her husband Cliff are small business owners in St. Petersburg for over 30 years. In their spare time they enjoy the Rocky Mountains and have a cabin outside of McCall, Idaho.
Mrs. Bertucci loves her job in the front office as she enjoys helping parents, students, & staff and knows that each day brings a new adventure.
Early Childhood, EC2 - EC4
Mrs. Cindy Shafer
Director of Early Childhood/EC4 Teacher
Mrs. Tricia Dees
Ms. Heidi DiGeronimo
Mrs. Karen Duran
EC4 Teacher Assistant
Mrs. Karen Lipham
Ms. Kristina Campbell
EC2 Teacher Assistant
Ms. Katelyn Keane
EC3 Teacher Assistant
Mrs. Suzi Mursky
EC4 Teacher Assistant
Cindy Shafer was born and raised in Springfield, Ohio. After attending the University of Missouri, she moved to St. Petersburg with her family. She met her husband Rob here at the Cathedral of St. Jude, where they both remain active parishioners. Together they have three adult children and two grandchildren. Her husband and children are all graduates of the Cathedral School of St. Jude and St. Petersburg Catholic High School. Mrs. Shafer began her career at the Cathedral School 22 years ago teaching the inaugural EC3 class in the old Convent building. After several years, she began teaching the EC4 level. She is currently the Director of the Early Childhood program in addition to her EC4 teaching duties. Mrs. Shafer loves her students, and enjoys seeing them progress through the grades and blossom into young adults.
Mrs. Dees started working here at the Cathedral School of St. Jude in 2011. She works as a teacher assistant in the two year old classroom. Mrs. Dees has her certification through the Florida Department of Children and Families in Early Childhood. She enjoys exploring state parks throughout Florida with her husband and two children.
Ms. DiGeronimo graduated from Pinellas Technical College and holds a Child Development Associates degree. She joined our St. Jude's faculty family in January 2011. She carries 23 years of teaching experience into the classroom. In her free time Ms. DiGeronimo may be found at Orangetheory Fitness at the beach in Treasure Island. She is an avid fan of the New York Yankees and of hockey.
Mrs. Duran has been at the Cathedral School of St. Jude's for ten years. She has assisted in the Kindergarten classes and has also worked in the Extended Day program. Mrs. Duran has a background in early childhood and enjoys working with the young children.
As a graduate of St. Pete Catholic High School and an alumni of the Cathedral School of St. Jude, it was only natural for Mrs. Lipham to choose Catholic education as her career. Upon receiving her Associate's Degree, Mrs Lipham began working at St. Jude's in 2004 as a Teacher's Assistant in our Early Childhood Department. In 2010, she became one of our full time EC4 teachers and has loved her job ever since. Mrs. Lipham currently serves on the St. Jude Parent Association Board as the Faculty Representative, a position she will hold for the next two years.
Ms. Campbell attended Transfiguration Parish School. She graduated with both an AA Degree and an AS Degree in Early Childhood Education. She also has two national CDA's and her Staff Credential and is currently working towards her BA in Elementary Education. Ms. Campbell has been teaching for over ten years. She has a 7 year old son Lucas and loves spending all her free time with him!
Miss Katelyn Keane is happy to have joined Cathedral School of St. Jude family for the 2018-2019 school year. Born in Massachusetts but raised in Pinellas County Florida Ms.keane was raised in the Catholic church and in Sunday School with a devoted Catholic Family. Ms. Keane has been in the childcare field for 5 years ranging from being a nanny to working at day cares. She is very excited to begin her passion of teaching in Catholic Education. Ms.Keane is pursuing her Associate's of Science in early childhood education from St Petersburg College and will graduate May 2019. Then go on to pursuing her Bachelors of Science in elementary education in Fall of 2019. In her free time she enjoys the outdoors and playing with her puppy Opie.
Primary Grades K-2
Mrs. Lisa Hashem
Mrs. Melinda Creamer
Ms. Kelly Statzer
Grade 1 Teacher
Ms. Stacey Cox
Grade 1 Teacher
Mrs. Margarita Abdo
Grade 2 Teacher
Mrs. Deborah McCann
Grade 2 Teacher
Mrs. Hashem is originally from Fullerton, California. She moved to Saint Petersburg, Florida in 1987 and attended Northeast High School. She joined the St. Jude the Apostle Parish in 1989. She has always loved working with children and was hired as a Pre-K assistant while going to school at Saint Petersburg Junior College. She went on to attend the University of South Florida where she majored in Special Education and received a Bachelors of Science for Emotionally Handicapped K-12.
After graduation she taught in a 4th and 5th grade Emotionally Handicapped class at Perkins Elementary Magnet for the Arts and International Studies. While teaching, she took additional coursework to add on her Elementary Education K-6 Certification. She then married in 1997 and decided to stay home to raise her daughters. While at home, she earned an additional certification in Literacy Success/Title 1. She taught Literacy Success part time at Pasadena Fundamental Elementary.
Mrs. Hashem has been keeping herself busy the last 5 years running the St. Jude Nursery on Sundays and being a part of the Vacation Bible School Core team. Last year, Mrs. Hashem was a substitute teacher in our Pre-K and Kindergarten classes. Her youngest daughter, Natalie, attends St. Jude's.
Ms. Statzer is currently teaching our first grade class. She holds a B.A. in Communication from USF and is certified for elementary education. She is the mother of four children who have all graduated from St. Jude Cathedral School. She is a long time parish member of the Cathedral and feels blessed to be a part of Catholic education. Ms. Statzer is also our teacher facilitator for the St. Jude Cathedral School chess club.
Ms. Cox was born & raised in St. Petersburg, Florida. She attended Florida State University where she studied Family and Child Science with a minor in Education. In 2015, she graduated with her Bachelors of Science and moved back to the Bay area. She always had a passion for working with children. She went on to pursue Elementary Education at the University of South Florida where she received her Masters degree in December of 2017. Ms. Cox holds a Professional Education teaching certificate for grades K-6 and is endorsed in English for Speakers of Other Languages. She began working for Pinellas County Schools in 2018 as a first grade teacher at Mount Vernon Elementary. She’s so excited to be a part of the St. Jude community! In her free time, she loves doing yoga and spending time at the beach.
Margarita Abdo has worked as an educator for 19 years. She graduated from Barry University in Miami Shores with a Bachelor of Science Degree in Education. She is ESOL endorsed and is certified in Special Education and General Education K-6. She worked for Pinellas County Schools for 18 years and is now teaching 2nd grade at the Cathedral School of St. Jude. Margarita loves her years of teaching in public schools, however, she wanted to teach in an environment where she could share the love of Christ with her students. She began teaching at the Cathedral School of St. Jude in 2016 and believes it is a privilege to be able to prepare the students for the Sacraments of Reconciliation and Eucharist.
Margarita Abdo is a Florida native and loves the Sunshine State. She is married and has 4 children, all of which attended the Cathedral School of St. Jude. “My children flourished at the Cathedral School both academically and spiritually.” “I hope to do the same with my students”
In her spare time, Margarita volunteers with the Cathedral’s Youth Group and is on the team that prepares middle schoolers for the Sacrament of Confirmation. She loves to travel and loves cats! I look forward to many years of educating children at St. Jude.
Mrs. McCann has been a member of St. Jude community since arriving to the St. Petersburg area in 1967. She graduated from Boca Ciega High and later attended the University of Florida where she graduated with a Bachelor’s degree in Communication Studies. Mrs. McCann worked for Honeywell and Raytheon on corporate government contracts before entering the teaching profession.
Mrs. McCann holds a Florida Professional Education certificate for Elementary Education grades K – 6th. In 1997, Mrs. McCann joined the teaching force of Pinellas County Schools. While taking some time off to raise her three daughters, Mrs. McCann was a substitute teacher with the Diocese of St. Petersburg.
After several years as a Title I teacher and teaching third grade, Mrs. McCann made a move to come back to teach 2nd grade full time at the Cathedral School of St. Jude in 2016.
Mrs. McCann is married to Steven McCann (parishioner since 1969) and they have three daughters, Haele, Stephanie and Katherine who are all graduates of the Cathedral School of St Jude.
Intermediate Grades, 3 - 5
Miss Leigh Bailey
Grade 3 Teacher
Mrs. Erin Nelson
Grade 3 Teacher
Mrs. Barbara Clasen
Grade 4 Teacher
Mrs. Amanda Babb
Grade 4 Teacher
Ms. Suzanne Bogacki
Grade 5 Teacher
Mrs. Kelly Wiand
Grade 5 Teacher
Miss Bailey is from the Fort Lauderdale area. She graduated with her degree in Elementary Education and ESOL Endorsement from Florida Atlantic University in Boca Raton, FL. She taught first grade in the Palm Beach County school district for three years. She moved from South Florida to St. Petersburg this summer and is very happy to be teaching at Saint Jude Cathedral School.
Mrs. Barbara Clasen was born and raised in Queens, NY. The sixth of seven children, she attended Catholic schools for her entire education. She received a B.A. in Psychology from St. John Fisher College (Rochester, NY) and an advanced certificate in Elementary Education from Marist College (Poughkeepsie, NY.) Mrs. Clasen has worked in several schools in the Dioceses of Brooklyn and St. Petersburg since 1997 including Catherine McAuley H.S. (Brooklyn, NY), Espiritu Santo (Safety Harbor, FL) and Our Lady of Lourdes (Dunedin, FL.) In addition, she spent two years as a behavior specialist for a children's home in Millbrook, NY. This year marks her 19th year as an educator. The 2017-2018 school year is her 6th year at St. Jude's teaching and loving fourth grade!
Mrs. Babb was born and raised in southwestern Pennsylvania. She attended St. Vincent College and received a Bachelor of Arts degree in Psychology and an elementary teaching certification. She worked for Catholic Social Services of Summit County Ohio and also as a high school lacrosse coach before moving to St Petersburg in 2011. Mrs. Babb has taught 4th grade for Pinellas County Schools for three years and is excited to continue her passion of teaching as she begins her second year at the Cathedral School of St. Jude this year. Mrs. Babb dedicates her time, talent, and passion for creating a classroom where students and families feel safe and valued. In her free time, she enjoys cooking, playing lacrosse and spending time with her husband and three children at the beach.
Originally from Buffalo, NY, Ms Bogacki has enjoyed living in the Tampa area for the past 10 years. As a veteran teacher, she holds a Bachelor’s Degree in Elementary Education from Daemen College, and a Master’s Degree in Education from Canisius College. Ms. Bogacki has ESOL and Reading Endorsements, and is ESE certified. When not in the classroom, Ms Bogacki can be found walking her Cocker Spaniel (Ellie) around Gulfport with her husband (Gene), engaged in reading or tending to her orchids.
Born and raised in the Sunshine State, Mrs. Wiand has resided in Florida her entire life. A proud graduate of St. Jude School and St. Petersburg Catholic High School. Mrs. Wiand completed her Bachelor degree in Elementary and Early Childhood Education from the University of South Florida and earned her Master degree in Educational Leadership from Barry University in Miami.
Mrs. Wiand has served the Diocese in various capacities over the last 22 years; beginning as a teacher and then moving into administration. Mrs. Wiand’s love for the classroom and teaching has brought her full circle back to teaching 5th grade.
Mrs. Wiand and her husband are the proud parents of three children, all graduates of St. Jude.
Middle School Grades, 6 - 8
Miss Linda Wathen
Grade 6 Home Room
Middle School Religion
Grade 7 Language Arts
Mrs. Michelle Fries
Grade 8 Homeroom Teacher
Middle School Science
Mrs. Michelle Delaney
Grade 7 Home Room
Middle School Math
Mr. Joseph Kloppel
Grade 7 Home Room
Middle School Social Studies
Mrs. Teresa McBride
Grade 8 Home Room
Grade 8 Language Arts
Grade 7 Accelerated Language Arts
Mrs. Marilyn Montroy
Grade 6 Language Arts
Linda Wathen was born and raised in Battle Creek, Michigan. She graduated from St. Philip Catholic Central High School and later received her Bachelor's degree from Michigan State University. After moving to Florida, she completed a Master's degree through the University of South Florida. This will be her 29th year in the Diocese of St. Petersburg and her 9th at St. Jude's. Ms. Wathen loves the Michigan State Spartans and sunny, 78 degree, low humidity days.
I began my teaching career in 1991 working for the School Board of Pasco County. My desire to share my Catholic faith with my students brought me to the Diocese of Saint Petersburg in 2001. I taught many years at our parish school, Espiritu Santo Catholic School, while my own children attended K-8. Then, at Saint Cecelia Interparochial School before coming to St. Jude’s this year to join the kindergarten team. I was born and raised in Clearwater, Florida. After graduating high school, I attended The University of South Florida where I earned my bachelor’s degree in Elementary Education. My husband and I were married 29 years ago at Light of Christ Catholic Church and have two beautiful daughters. My parents are truly blessed that their children have all stayed in the Clearwater area to raise their families. In my free time I most enjoy spending time with my family. We also enjoy traveling to Tallahassee, to our daughter’s alma mater FSU, to see the Seminole’s play football and basketball. We spend many weekends in Jacksonville to see our younger daughter while she’s away in college. We love to travel to other states to see the fall leaves and snowfall in the winter, but nothing beats living here being able to spend time near the water and beautiful beaches!
I’m excited to have joined the family at the Cathedral School of Saint Jude!
Mrs. Delaney is our Middle School Math Teacher. She has 13 years teaching experience in Pinellas County. Mrs. Delaney is certified in Elementary Education Grades K-6, Middle School Mathematics Grades 5-9, and has earned the ESOL Endorsement. In 2013, she was honored with the Outstanding Educator Award from the Pinellas Classroom Teachers Association. She and her husband, Matthew, have been married 24 years and have one daughter, Chloe. Chloe is in the 2nd Grade at St. Jude. Mrs. Delaney and her family are members of the Cathedral of St. Jude Parish.
Mr. Kloppel has been the middle school social studies teacher at the Cathedral School of St Jude since 2015. Mr. Kloppel was born and raised in the Black Hills of South Dakota about 40 miles north of Mt Rushmore. He attended the University of Nebraska and received and B.A. degree in history.
Upon graduating from the University of Nebraska Mr. Kloppel received a commission as an officer in the United States Marine Corps.Mr. Kloppel served 22 years in the Marine Corps and retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. Mr. Kloppel spent three years of his Marine Corps career as a history teacher and department head at the Marine Corps University in Quantico, VA.
Mr. Kloppel also holds a master’s degree from San Diego State University. He enjoys playing golf and is a huge college football fan.
Mrs. McBride houses the 8th grade homeroom and teaches 7th and 8th grade Language Arts. She earned a B.A. in English from Florida State University and taught for four years at South Tampa's Christ the King Catholic School under the Salesian Sisters of Don Bosco. She began teaching at the Cathedral School of St. Jude in 2007. Since then she has satisfied two professional goals, earning a Master's in Education with a Concentration in Reading from Dominican University and teaching at St. Petersburg College. During this time she also home-schooled her daughter.
A friend to monarchs and a foe to lubbers, Mrs. McBride spends lots of time in the Florida outdoors: biking trails in Alafia, paddling on Weeki Wachee, and growing veggies in the backyard. She'll read (almost) anything, but her favorite book is the one she is reading right now.
Mrs. Montroy is a native New Yorker who was primarily raised in New Jersey. After graduating from college, she began teaching in the Diocese of Trenton, New Jersey. She taught sixth grade for two years before getting married and then following her husband in his military career for the next four years. During this time Mrs. Montroy taught fifth grade in Sacred Heart School in Homestead, Florida and then returned to the corporate front when her husband was deployed to Vietnam.
In 1972, she and her husband and were blessed with a beautiful baby boy, Michael John, who was the joy of her life and still is. She was financially able to stay home while nurturing her son and did not return to corporate until 1980. After a short period of time she returned to college to update her knowledge base and decided to return to teaching. Once again she worked for the Diocese of Trenton.
In 1998 Mrs. Montroy relocated to St. Petersburg and began teaching at Seminole Middle School. She taught seventh and eighth grade gifted Language Arts. In the summer of her four years at Seminole she also taught summer school at SPC. She began teaching full time at SPC as a Department Chair as well as a campus mentor and instructor of the Honors and Advanced Placement senior students. After fourteen years she retired only to be contacted by Mr. Bubolz two weeks later and she then agreed to teach sixth grade Language Arts to the students of St. Jude. She continues to teach sixth grade and as of 2017 she added a seventh grade to her schedule. She is most happy to be part of such a wonderful, warm and caring community. She considers herself blessed.
Mr. Keith Knippen
Mr. Matthew Orr
Athletic Director/Physical Education Teacher
Mr. Jody Odom
Physical Education Teacher Assistant
Mr. Michael Woods
Mrs. Patricia Florez
Mr. Dan Cohen
Mr. Knippen has been a part of the St. Jude community for a long time. He has been a parishioner for 42 years. He was married to his wife,Teri, 27 years ago in the Cathedral. Further, his two sons attended St. Jude's from preschool through eighth grade. He has coached numerous boys and girls basketball teams since 2003. He began as a substitute teacher in 2005 and became the Art teacher in 2007.
Mr. Knippen has an AA degree from St. Petersburg Junior College and holds a BA degree from the College of Liberal Arts and Science at the University of Florida. He is a retired police officer from the St. Petersburg Police Department.
Mr. Knippen was exposed to art at an early age. His mother was a professional artist and parochial school art teacher. His father was a talented artist and craftsman. Beyond the pleasure of teaching, Mr. Knippen enjoys college football and basketball, cooking, creating art and listening to diverse genres of music.
Mr. Orr has been a life-long student of Saint Petersburg Catholic Schools. He attended Transfiguration and graduated from Saint Petersburg Catholic High School. After graduation, he returned to Saint Petersburg Catholic assisting in the soccer program. He continued with the soccer program while working towards receiving his Bachelor of Science degree in Criminal Justice. After working with the City of Saint Petersburg as a Youth Development Worker and the Supervisor of the ever-popular “Free Style Fridays”, it became clear that working with the youth was his calling. He is certified by the State of Florida for grades K-8. Mr. Orr joined St. Jude’s in 2016 as PE Assistant and worked at Morning Star as the After School Director. We welcome Mr. Orr full time to our PE program.
Michael Woods was born and raised in Cincinnati Ohio. He earned his Bachelor and Master of Music degrees from Manhattan School of Music and majored in percussion performance. After graduating from Manhattan School of Music, he joined the United States Air Force Academy Band in 1990 as a percussionist at Colorado Springs and retired from that organization in September 2012. In July 2014, he received a Master’s of Arts in Teaching degree in Secondary Music Education from Colorado College. After graduating from Colorado College, he taught at Hargrave Military Academy in Chatham Virginia for three years and currently is excited to be teaching at the Cathedral School of St. Jude. In his free time, he enjoys distance running and playing tennis. Michael and his wife, Anna are proud parents of two daughters.
Mrs. Patricia Flórez was born and raised in Bogotá, Colombia where she completed a Bachelor's degree in Business Administration and a Master’s degree in Project Appraisals. In 1998, she moved to Atlanta, GA, where she had the great opportunity to become a Spanish teacher for grades K to 8th grade. During her tenure as a teacher, in 2008 Patricia attained a Master’s degree in Spanish Literature from Georgia State University.
Then in 2013, she decided to go after a lifelong dream and became a Certified Holistic Nutritional Therapist, thereafter gathering several years of experience working as a Health Coach in the Wellness industry. In 2016, she moved to Tampa, FL to be closer to her family and where she continued working in the areas of Wellness and Health Education. And in 2018, motivated by the passion to educate and enlighten younger minds, she returns to the educational field with the objective to empower a new generation of students in their understanding of the Spanish language, cultural diversity awareness and encourage a holistic (all-inclusive) way of looking at the ever-changing world around us.
In her free time, Mrs. Flórez enjoys spending time with family and friends, traveling, reading, cooking and dancing.
Mr. Cohen was born and raised in Tampa, Florida. A lifelong member of the Catholic school system, Mr. Cohen grew up attending Catholic schools in Florida and is proud of the spiritual life he maintains. He is a graduate of the University of South Florida and holds a professional teaching certificate gained from Hillsborough Community College Educator Preparation Institute. He has always been fascinated with technology and enjoys working with it on a daily basis. He believes technology is a key aspect in our learning and education. Along with teaching technology, he is constantly exploring the exciting technological world that develops around us.
Resource and Title 1
Mrs. DeMeza is a resource teacher at the Cathedral School of St Jude. She earned her M.A. from the University of South Florida in Elementary Education. She began her teaching career at Christ the King School in South Tampa as a first-grade teacher. After being at Christ the King School for three years, she wanted to work closer to home which led her to the Cathedral of St Jude School.
Mrs. DeMeza married her husband, Tim, 16 years ago, in the Cathedral. Mrs. DeMeza’s oldest son Conner attends Saint Petersburg Catholic High School, and her other two children, Caleb and Carly attend school here at the Cathedral School of St. Jude. In her spare time, you can find Mrs. DeMeza enjoying boating and fishing with her family.
Extended Day Director
Ms. Stacey has worked in the Diocese of St. Petersburg for 23 years, 18 of those at St. Jude. She loves to organize activities and crafts for the children in her care.
She enjoys traveling and swimming.